NST Supercharger Pulley Swap Options...

3814 Views 28 Replies 11 Participants Last post by hPower, Dec 17, 2005

EddNog

Discussion Starter · Oct 31, 2005

I have been in discussions with NonStop Tuning regarding the prospective pulley products they will be releasing for the TRD supercharged tCs and they are interested in knowing what we would prefer. Which product do you want the most?

Supercharger Overdrive Pulley--this would swap out at the opposite side from the snail, and is the pulley driven by the crank. An overdrive pulley here would be smaller than stock and weigh less, but installation would require breaking the warranty seal. The only part of the car being updriven would be the supercharger.

Solid Crank Overdrive Pulley--this would be a direct swap for the stock harmonic damper, but would have a larger overall diameter (~10% overdrive) and weigh less than stock. Everything driven by the crank will be updriven. This won't affect the warranty of the supercharger (I am unsure for the rest of the drivetrain).

They and myself will be watching your responses to this thread carefully; please post any comments you can regarding your choice, if you could, besides voting on the poll as well.

Thank you!

-Ed

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josurr

· #2 · Oct 31, 2005

im saving my vote until i see comparison of the performance benefits of each

EddNog

Discussion Starter · #3 · Oct 31, 2005

Performance-wise they have a specific target and both would be designed to hit the same target.

I'm reserving comments regarding reliability for later (don't want to skew poll results for the moment, although I get a feeling Lance might just shoot down one of the choices outright and very soon, at which point I will be free to talk about why I put an option for, "Other.")...

-Ed

EDIT: And Lance knows which choice I'm talking about, too.

lo bux racer

· #4 · Oct 31, 2005

I don't have anything nice to say about solid crank pulleys when they replace an OEM harmonic damper. If NST wants to talk to ATI, Fluidampr, or TCI and incorporate a proper harmonic damper into their solution, then I'm all for it. Without some kind of harmonic damper on the crank, you invite disaster. I have posted on this many times in a number of forums, and I had a long email battle with Shawn Baumgartner of Unorthodox Racing about this issue. UR pulleys were responsible for multiple failures on 2JZ engines because they require abandoning the damping function. All solid pulleys require ignoring the fundamental physics of how crankshafts respond to power pulses.

After looking at D's pulley, a smaller SC pulley would also be fine, but those persons with the anti-tamper device will be voiding their warranty, and that's one of the better reasons for getting the SC in the first place. Rumor has it that Vortech built the SC with enough capability to support 450 hp. It might be fun to test that, but I suspect there will be other components not up to the task for a daily driver, so I would anticipate the pulley to be about the cheapest part of the upgrade path. JMHO.

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EddNog

Discussion Starter · #5 · Oct 31, 2005

Thanks for doing the predictable, Lance.

There you have it; the reason why I am voting, "other." I wanted an overdrive harmonic damper, but NST says they don't have intentions of doing it. Even if they do it, they'd end up charging more than double the price of their solid pulley solutions (I am willing to pay this, but they are not willing to commit the R&D to it, since one or two customers isn't sufficient).

I didn't want to discuss this or make an opinion on it right from the get-go since I did not want to affect the poll results so early, but I knew that in this forum it wouldn't last long.

-Ed

iGod

· #6 · Nov 1, 2005

Originally posted by lo bux racer@Oct 31 2005, 12:54 AM
If NST wants to talk to ATI, Fluidampr, or TCI and incorporate a proper harmonic damper into their solution, then I'm all for it.

i am on the same page here.

as far as a smaller pulley on my s/c - sure. (no anti-tamper cap on my unit) more boost sounds fine to me, as long as everything else can support the boost. i have no interest in damaging my engine yet. right now it is still a daily driver. however, when it comes to our project tC, all bets are off. we are actually kinda hoping we get to break something on a 1/4 mile run. but then, its not my money.

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raamaudio

· #7 · Nov 1, 2005

I think they may be way off base on the number of customers that would pay more for a proper crank pulley. With the magantude of real world performance gurus against solid pulleys it should be easy to convince those wanting more power and to keep thier warranties to spend a bit more on what is really a low cost upgrade(as long as the rest of the system can support more boost that is

10%?? Is that an arbitrary number?? I think a few sizes should be made and tested to see what actually can work the best, possibly optional sizes, 2-3 or so would work out.

Sure, the cost to make them is a bit but once the intial design is done making different sizes is not that hard to do.

Rick

EddNog

Discussion Starter · #8 · Nov 1, 2005

Originally posted by raamaudio@Nov 1 2005, 11:16 AM
I think they may be way off base on the number of customers that would pay more for a proper crank pulley. With the magantude of real world performance gurus against solid pulleys it should be easy to convince those wanting more power and to keep thier warranties to spend a bit more on what is really a low cost upgrade(as long as the rest of the system can support more boost that is

10%?? Is that an arbitrary number?? I think a few sizes should be made and tested to see what actually can work the best, possibly optional sizes, 2-3 or so would work out.

Sure, the cost to make them is a bit but once the intial design is done making different sizes is not that hard to do.

Rick

~10% is a guesstimate for initial offerings with later offerings increasing (~20% etc.), but that's still preliminary since they are still in the R&D stages for their solid pulley solutions (both crank overdrive and supercharger overdrive). The point made was that both solutions would be designed to yield the same amount of increased supercharger drive rate, so it's up to the customer to decide which way they wanted to go (overdrive everything and risk torque shock/oil pump issues, but preserve supercharger warranty, or screw the supercharger warranty, but do nothing to the rest of the car). That was the figure I was told to provide; I am not allowed to discuss the expected increase in PSI that was mentioned to me by NST, and I don't want to, since those figures are not yet final, either.

-Ed

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phixeus

· #9 · Nov 8, 2005

well i can see going from 7 to 12 psi in a 20% reduction of pulley size. for the warranty people, the turbo community has had few problems with the motor at all ranges of boost. the motor can take a lot of abuse. the SC gives you a little smoother build. hell, going to 15 or 16 psi would be safe if we can get an efficiant way to cool the charge more. does anyone know if the scroll housing on the SC can be rotated to point down and run the charge through a small FMIC?

lo bux racer

· #10 · Nov 8, 2005

I think you overestimate the rest of the drivetrain, and overestimate the strength of the open deck block. Toyota has never built gearboxes to the same level of overengineering they put in their engines, and we're seeing the leading edge of this with broken axles already.

zoltiz

· #11 · Nov 8, 2005

I wouldn't mind extra 10whp from a simple pulley, honestly. As long as it's pre-tested and safe.

The tamper-proof cap was not in my kit for some reason and it's noted in the work order.

phixeus

· #12 · Nov 8, 2005

Well thats funny, i don't remember saying anything about the rest of the driveline. All stock drive line components are weak when you dump lots of power on them, hell you have to build up the same parts on the sti and Evo 8 and those are 2 of the better built " out of the box " pocket rockets.

But yes i was only referring to the motors capabilities. the drive line does need significant upgrade, however i don't see us being far off from reaching that level or goal.

The weakest link in this motor is the head. that is also an easy fix. I see this car doing very well in the hands of the right owners and developers. We atleast have a solid platform to start with. i don't know of any car that does not need upgrades in other ares to handle the new power.

lo bux racer

· #13 · Nov 8, 2005

You obviously haven't owned a Supra. They're easily good to 900 hp with just a clutch.

How do you arrive at the head being the weak link? Holding it down? Flow? Cooling? Combustion chamber design?

I think the open deck is a lot bigger concern at 12+ psi boost.

phixeus

· #14 · Nov 9, 2005

well, i am still learning the motor, i am coming out of a 04 Mazda 3 that made nearly 400 whp at 14 psi and it did just fine in everything but the clutch.

i bow down to you and your Supra, however that my friend, is by all means a muscle car. it is no 20 to 30 grand pocket rocket. it is a wonderful machine that put Toyota on the map and it was, and still is in most respects, way ahead of its time.

can you elaborate on the "open deck' thing a little more. i don't have a clue what you are talking about, but don't joust, i am still new to the import/compact sport arena. by all means, educate me so that i may be a more productive member of the forum and society.

lo bux racer

· #15 · Nov 9, 2005

Click here and scroll down a little for pictures of open and closed decks with a short discussion about why they aren't a great idea for boosted engines.

Yes, the Supra is an anomaly, but it is in the same league as the STi and EVO VIII in my opinion with the exception that it was so overbuilt from the factory that it is almost impossible to break if you aren't foolish or stupid. It's hard to imagine running 32 psi of boost on a stock head, but Ara Arslanian did it for an entire season.

We've posted a lot of analysis of the 2AZ on this site, and I recently bought a used head specifically to figure out how to make it work better. Dig around, you'll find lots of useful stuff.

phixeus

· #16 · Nov 9, 2005

thanks for the help and the information. wow, thoes guys just did not get it huh? VW is working on a new 1.6L twincharged motor. clutched roots style blower and IHI turbo. they said it made 130% more hp than either of the chargers made on their own. thanks for the pic also. i have heard of that being called an unsealed block. i think that is where people like me are getting the head failure. thanks again for the info.

hPower

· #17 · Dec 13, 2005

It looks like NST has just released some stuff on their site. Has anyone around here tried any of this stuff yet? www.nonstoptuning.com

EddNog

Discussion Starter · #18 · Dec 13, 2005

They quoted me 9.1psi with their pulley swap on the s/c.

-Ed

zoltiz

· #19 · Dec 13, 2005

NST pulleys are supposed to ship after New Years. ZPI pulley already sits on my desk.

greddytc05

· #20 · Dec 13, 2005

lo bux correct me if i'm wrong but looking at those pics you have of what you are calling open and closed. it looks to me like our blocks are set up the same as a honda motor. and if that is the case then if someone really wanted to they could spend the money and get the block sleeved so it will handle more boost. please tell me if i miss enterpret what you are saying about the open and closed subject.

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