[OliverThomas]

Engine swap feasibility

This has been lightly talked about on this website, and it’s been bothering me lately. It seems to me that 160 hp. Out of a 2.5L engine isn’t a whole lot. Maybe I’m wrong. That’s not the point. What I’m wondering is this.

What does it take to really swap engines? Why not take an engine from, oh, say an STI or EVO and stuff it under the hood? Does it really just boil down to that there is not enough room in our engine compartment? I know mating it to a tranny is a problem, but is it something that cannot be done because of the engineering design of the car? What engine’s the same size as ours that put out more power would fit? And in the end, would it be worth it?

Maybe what I’m asking is this. Is the only way that our tC is ever going to beat z28’s, and STI’s and EVO’s on the track is a stage 3+ turbo, sacrificing reliability for power?

 

[Zygote55]

Well the STI and EVO are AWD, so I think you'd have some issues there....

The STI uses a 2.5l engine and the EVO uses 2.0l....I can't see how they'd be physically larger than the tC's engine. I think from a monetary standpoint it just doesn't work.... ANYTHING is possible with money.

 

[ScionGTR]

As Zygote55 said. The STI engine is lil bit bigger then ours, but the EVO is just too small if you are asking me. The 4B64 is a great engine, but it's been around for too long and Mitsu needs a upgrade. Back to the topic. Our 2.4 liter engine is pretty good. If we had the same mods just like the EVO and the STI have we would be a lot quicker, but don't quote me on this. I'm sure Lance will jump on here and will give us some answares. I wish our tCs came with the Camry's v6 engine and Matrix's awd, something similar to the VW R32, so the only thing will have to do is put a turbo in there. But again the only two good things about life is: hopes and dreams.

 

[raamaudio]

I wish our cars were RWD more so than AWD as would weigh less and cost less to mod and repair when we break them

I have even considered AWD and RWD mods but just not worth the cost, better to just get a different car.

As for making power, easy to do with our cars and reliably as well. Once off the line or out of certain tight corners, AWD loses most of it's advantages and then you gain disadvantages as in drive train loss and all the extra weight.

Not dissing AWD but it is not the end all of performance, just another way to have it.

The biggest HP number, the fastest qtr mile, etc, have little to do with real world driving. A truly fast car can be made from a FWD that is very balanced and fast in all regards and I find it more fun to drive sometimes as a bit more of a challenge to be really quick in one

If you want a race car, build whatever you want and go race it. If you want something fun to drive that is plenty fast for most all real world situations, that can be done with most any car, ours happen to do it well for a low cost. And I mean fast enough to scare the crap out of you, I will glady do so for anyone wanting to ride in our lowly 2.4 RWD tC once we get it done

Rick

 

[lo bux racer]

There's not much to say about engine swaps. Unless the engine's mounts make it easy to bolt in, it's a nightmare. Yes, with a lot of money you could do it, but it would be a lot cheaper just to buy an Evo or an STi and call it a day.

 

[zeromotorsports]

the sti is a boxer four which would most likely be a royal biotch to do, and what does the evo's engine have that the 2az doesnt have? put some stronger internals and a turbo on and you can easily make more power. Probable for less cost than a custom swap like that. Like it was said earlier, the 4G63 (im about positive mitsu hasnt changed the engine code) is a great platform, but its an outdated design, and has less displacement.

 

[jeep]

4g63 is correct. it hasn't changed. but there's a reason it hasn't. it works...VERY well. but I wouldn't do an engine swap into the tC just yet. the potential of this motor hasn't even been pressed, let alone maxed out yet.

if you want to go AWD...then I could maybe see re-doing the entire thing, but why not try getting the running gear from the old AWD celicas and keeping it in the family?

 

[raamaudio]

How much more does the block weigh in the EVO than in our cars??????

How much will that negatively effect the handling dynamics of an already front weight biased car??????

How much HP do you really want to live with??????

There is no logical reason to swap out the motors, huge cost, handling issues, can make more power than you can effectively use with what we have for 1/4th the cost.

If you are trying to build an all out drag car that may be reason enough but you can also build a 2.7 Tacoma motor to over 1,100 HP so at least you can stay with a Toyco motor in your tC.

Sometimes we need to really think things through before we say or do things that have little actual merit

Rick

 

[lo bux racer]

The only swap I can see making some kind of sense is a RAV4 drivetrain swap. It already uses the 2AZ, so the engine mounts won't be a total misfit, and it would be cool (but probably very difficult) swap of running gear for 4WD. Then of course, you would have to turbo the thing to make up for all the drivetrain losses incurred by going with front and rear drive components.

It would be an interesting exercise, but again, it would be much more cost effective to just buy the Evo or STi and call it a day. Until you have to buy rotors for that STi at $300+ each...

 

[ScionGTR]

Nice Lo bux has the solution for me if now only he gets me the money

my dream would finaly come true.

 

[OliverThomas]

Yeah, i see your points. Still, you have to admit, it would be nice to be able to shove all that pompious condesention right back in the evo's or sti's or camaros/firebirds.

Guess you have to reconcile yourself to the car you buy being better in some ways, and not in others.

 

[lo bux racer]

Or you can buy more cars. That worked for me.

 

[raamaudio]

Back in Dec 2003 I was just crusing at 75mph on my way to the last autocross I attended with my turbo Matrix and an Evo came up beside me and revved a couple of times, I could here his new BOV making some noise so he was not totally stock. I dropped down to 4th though 3rd would of pulled harder and signaled him to go, he took off and before I was ready to hit fifth I was at least 5 car lengths ahead of him and hitting the speed gov at 120MPH.

How is this so? 250WHP, 2,600 lbs(as I had it at the time), AWD is of no use in this situation and so, power to weight ratio was decidedly in my favor. On a drag strip he would of left me so badly I would never catch him, where his AWD would be a huge advantage.

You do not need to swap motors to be fast in at least most situations, no!!!! My little 1.8 was pretty dang quick and that was not the only car I dusted off

I would love to see a RAV4 AWD swap though, almost did an AL Trac to my Trix, Rav 4 would of been even sweeter!!!

(I was scoping out a RAV4 just the day before yesterday and contemplating how much it would take to do this

Rick

 

[ScionGTR]

Well the reason i want the AWD is so that i could go auto-x i'm not really into drag racing, but the auto-x is so lovley, but with a front wheel drive is not so much fun as with AWD. I'm sure you guys know what i'm talking about since you are exprienced drivers and you also have a lot of expirence with cars.

 

[zeromotorsports]

a friend of mine is doing research on putting a crv drivetrain in his del sol to complement the 400hp turbo b18c1 hes just finishing. i was joking with him about mating the rav4 drivetrain to my tc and boosting it. would be pretty cool though

 

[raamaudio]

AWD not needed for autox, nice to have when properly setup but if that was my main reason to have a car I would either buy one or a RWD. The fastest car(s) in my class were M3's, second fastest WRX, I was gaining huge ground on the top few cars, best finish was .01 second out of second place in SM class, a very fast class, in my turbo Matrix.
This was the first season, my first FWD, still alot of development left to improve the car and my driving ability needed tuning as well. I have no doubt I would of been consistently in second place(around 20 cars per event in the class) by the end of the second season if I had continued to run it. First place was won all but once by a fairly big margin, M3, 8 time national champ, faster that many classes that are supposed to be faster than he was and I believe I would of been nipping on his heals soon, really.

BUT, that took a highly modded FWD to do so, more than all my competitors cars, more cost effective to buy an older M3 and do minor mods but more challenging thus to me rewarding to take on such cars with my little wagon/mini SUV, lol!

You can do the same with a WRX of course but takes more mods than the M3 and would cost more most likely.

Then you move on to another class that has the Evo and STI's and you spend all the money on the car and then some fairly expensive mods but only a few needed. If one of those are in your budget range they are one heck of a fast way to go.


I plan to make the tC even better than my Matrix, more to work with, then run it in SM class in the Northwest, sure hope we have some fast cars in that class. I would rather lose a close race than win easily, gives me something to work towards

Rick

 

[lo bux racer]

AWD is IMHO, totally overrated. It adds weight and complexity, and is only a significant advantage when on a loose surface. On asphalt or concrete, a RWD car will set faster laps than an AWD car. It's been proven many times over. The advantage the AWD car has is the ability to run up into the edge of the marbles and still have enough traction to negotiate the turn. That's why they were so successful for Audi (the Quattro). When the RWD cars were limited in their line choices, the Quattro drivers had more options available to them and were able to counter the speed advantage of the RWD cars in the same class.

Here's some easy stuff to figure this out for yourself: AWD dragsters were run in the 60's. They didn't survive the sheer speed of the RWD cars because they had to be heavier, more complex, and more prone to failure. AWD didn't survive in F1 for the same reasons. If you look at any racing organization, you see the premier classes are always RWD, and they are always setting the fastest laps at any meet.

I'm not saying FWD and AWD are not fun, or don't have their place, but they are not the "cream of the crop" in any organized racing series on pavement.

 

[1sikTC]

I could only see AWD being usefull in Rally Racing.

 

[f1jay]

honestly, if you're looking for a sub 30k car that does 0-60 in the 5 second range and can handle most exotics then why buy at tc?

Fact of the matter is that there is no 3 door 300hp sub 30k awd car in the us, the closest thing would probably be a peuguot 206wrc or get a ford rs cosworth and do some tweaking.

 

[raamaudio]

Not sure if I mentioned my next planned project car or not.

240Z chassis and partial body(would not tear up a nice one

250GTO body kit

Fully caged

Full custom suspension that can easily be converted to hook up for drags, set for road couses and street use in between events.

LS1/6spd (LS6 preferred but a bit costly)

Modular complete interior with world class audio comp system/interior trim, etc, that has race grade disconnects, etc, to be removable in minutes for racing.

Drive it to all the events, approx 2,200 lbs, 400-500WHP(when find the sweet spot of drivability and reliability but stinking fast all the time

Of course RWD!!!!

Rick