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· Former '05er
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
It would seem I am wrong about the ECM in our cars. I found this while researching a RAV4 specs topics. Apparently, it is possible to reflash the ECM in a 2AZ application. That certainly helps understand how Scionspeed was able to say he thinks there is a way around the speed limiter (we all want this if we do get turbo systems installed, it would suck to have 300 hp and a 127 mph top speed limit).

Anyway, just wanted to set the record straight. I found the tools. It's not cheap. About $6k for everything before convincing Toyco to put me on distribution for TSB and software updates to recalibrate the ECM. My bet is they've locked down most of the stuff you'd want to toy with anyway. That's a big hurdle for someone who doesn't have a shop.
 

· Former '05er
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
It could be accurate. Drivability is a funny thing, and with the cable operated systems the ECM looked at the throttleplate position (using a TPS) to determine how much extra fuel to dump in to improve tip-in response. It worked alot like the accelerator pump on a carburetor.

With drive-by-wire control, the ECM controls the rate of opening directly, so it doesn't need a sensor to tell it where the throttleplate is, it already knows because it is controlling it directly. This means the fuel dump for tip-in can be better matched to the engine's needs.

It doesn't mean the factory settings are optimized for hard use though. They are optimized to give most reliable operation under a wide range of conditions. If you narrow down that range of conditions and go a little closer to ideal, you may find better response. I suspect that's what your friends are commenting about.

Red line starts as a function of mean piston speed. 20 meters/sec is the generally acknowledged acceptable speed for durability. The 2AZ hits 20 m/sec at exactly 6250 rpm; coincidentally our base red line is at 6250. If you are willing to accept shorter service life, you can spin up to 7630 rpm for the same 24.4 m/sec mean piston speed as a Type R Integra (the highest mean piston speed of any street production engine including Honda's NSX).

The real question about raising the redline is what is in it for me if I do? There are three big questions that go along with this:
1. Does the cylinder head flow enough to support raising the redline?
2. Do the cams (and valve springs) support raising the redline?
3. Do the intake and exhaust support raising the redline?

If the ports and valves in the head will continue to flow more air without the airflow going supersonic at higher rpm, then we've answered #1.

If the cam profiles have already been maximized to work with the bottom end geometry (rod length to stroke ratio) and the valves and springs don't float or oscillate at the raised redline, we've answered #2.

If the intake (all the way from where the air goes in the opening to the cylinder head's opening) and the exhaust (from where the exhaust port meets the header to the tip of the tailpipe) support the increased flow from raising the redline, then we've answered #3.

If we have a thumbs up on all three questions, we will make more torque at higher rpm, and therefore, more power. Ideally we make the same torque from the bottom of where we want the engine to be strong, all the way to redline, although usually torque starts to drop off before we get to redline.

A turbo, or any other kind of forced induction, will try to make more air move through the same system. Raising the intake pressure is always helpful, but again, you need to have the entire intake all the way to the valve seat correctly sized and the exhaust all the way from the valve seat correctly sized to take full advantage of forced induction.

Sure, you can slap on a pressure inducing device and get more, but if you really want to see the improvements, especially at high rpm, you'll need to take the head off and make some pretty radical changes to it to let more air into the cylinder. I've done this for an NA Supra head, and the port size difference between the stock GTE head and the stock NA head is huge. Basically just think of adding 4mm diameter to the entire port on the intake side. That's a LOT in the porting business.

So, if I took off the head and added some size to the ports and probably the valves too, we'd get more flow. More flow means more power at the high end of the rpm range which is where we planned to go anyway, so it's all good, assuming the rest of the intake and exhaust are up to the task. Without modifying the ports or without changing the cam profiles, you are correct; more rpm won't get you a whole lot.

Last but not least, you also have to pick your FI device to match your desired rpm range. A big turbo (like a T-61 for our cars) will give great boost at high rpm (because it needs a lot of waste heat to drive it and we don't start making lots of waste heat until we really get the rpm up), but may not be too fun around town for stoplight racing.

Here again, we have to decide what rpm range we want to be responsive and pick our components to match that range. Too big is just as bad as too small. Lots of would-be porting guys find this out the first time they do a head. They almost always make the ports too big and the engine builder suffers as much embarrassment as the driver does.

Your question about a turbo is pretty easy to answer: no matter what, the engine will make more power under boost, but it won't fix the problems you need to solve to make more power above redline all by itself.
 

· Former '05er
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Depends on how cheaply I can get a junkyard engine. Sounds like a Highlander, RAV4, Camry, and tC all have the 2AZ inside. It might be pretty easy, now it's just a matter of how cheap.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Actually, the more models, the better. It increases the junkyard opportunities. Even though most of them will be automatics, the heads and blocks will still be useful. A RAV4 drivetrain transplant is fascinating though.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Toy(ota Motor) Co(mpany).
 

· Former '05er
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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Originally posted by kckid@Mar 22 2005, 09:03 PM
The thing that lobux left out is that when you raise the redline you also raise heat. Meaning that you need a better cooling system if you plan to keep it up very long. Second, you will find that the bottom end also needs to be well balanced in order to keep the engine together. The oiling system also needs to work well or things will seize up. Most small import engines are well balanced and the cooling system usually works very well. Raising the redline is dangerous thats why its there. Toyota knows what they are doing. However that doesnt stop us racers. Just know that most real race engines are torn apart ever ten runs or so. Even the good ones. Doing all this head work and changing the redline is great But keep in mind the bottom end is just as important as the top end. My friend runs a power programmer on his truck. Mostly its for changing the top speed and for changing shift points, tire sizes, ect to make it pull or race better. However it only changes these things and not the overall power. You may see small gains from changing the fuel to air ratio buts thats about it. This may be what your freind feel.
Ummm, sure. The oiling system does not need modification unless you want to install an oil cooler because we didn't get one from the factory. High volume oil pumps are not only not needed, but they will cause seal failure in Toyota engines. Simple rule of thumb: 10psi for every 1000 rpm up to 75 psi. If you have that, you have no worries. It's been true for years.

The tC cooling system has a much greater capacity than it needs, as is typical of Toyco designs. It would be the least of my worries.

Engine balance is not a worry with any Japanese engines, the manufacturers all do a stellar job of getting this right at the factory. All their cranks are forged and rods are shot peened so that's not a worry either.

Real race engines are torn down after every event or every run depending on the level of the sport. Top Fuel and Funny Cars are rebuilt after every run. Obviously you missed my points about service life and mean piston speed.

Toyota bottom ends are legendary. The 2JZ in the Supra has made over 800 hp bone stock from the factory in daily driven cars. I have no reason to doubt the 2AZ is any different, despite it being an aluminum block. It is one of the primary reasons I choose Toyota over other makes.

Horsepower is in the head. Longevity is in the bottom end. Been that way as long as I can remember, and not likely to change any time soon.
 

· Former '05er
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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
500 hp is more than three times the stock output. Of course he replaced the rods and pistons. I would too. Big numbers don't impress me, I know how they're made and how unpleasant they are to drive in a street car. I've worked on and ridden in a car that lit up 285 PZeros at 90 mph when it hit full boost. It wasn't a fun street driver unless you want to be on the cover of Max Speed (which it was).

High compression pistons don't get you even close to what forced induction will do, and to do that right you need to drop static compression, not increase it.

You need to do some more research into the 2AZ. It isn't quite as simple as it would seem, and hemi combustion chambers are super old school. Yamaha kicked them to the curb in '85 when they built the 5 valve genesis engines.

Oh, yeah, I grew up in the old school with circle track racing when power was the three C's: carbs, cams, and compression. I know it well.
 

· Former '05er
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Discussion Starter · #22 ·
How's that organism that eats biomass and excretes light crude oil coming??? We'll figure out the tC part, it's up to you to figure out how to keep fuel in them. OK?
 

· Former '05er
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Discussion Starter · #24 ·
You said "give me a test tube and some cells..." Well, I'm holding you to it!
 

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Discussion Starter · #27 ·
2JZ rated 320 crank hp. 800/320= <3. Simple math. Built Supras have dyno'd well in excess of 1000 hp on gasoline, others have dyno'd well in excess of 1200 on methanol. No need to make up my mind, it seemed pretty clear to me.

Street Supras have run 9's with single turbos and upgraded fuel. What's your point? Yes, we take candy from NA V-8s on a regular basis.

Anyone expecting to triple stock horsepower on any engine and have the stock pieces hold up is delusional, or has enough money to waste finding out. I am neither, but the 2AZ is already producing over 300 hp on stock internals without catastrophic failures. 320 is twice rated power, Scionspeed already posted a 358 whp dyno on boost with stock internals. I would not expect stock internals to produce 480 hp from the 2AZ without problems just as I wouldn't expect stock internals to produce 960 hp from a 2JZ without problems. It might work, but I wouldn't want to bet the block on it.

I've tuned enough engines to know it is a symphony. I've built enough Toyotas to know they do alot of the hard part for you before you even remove a single bolt to change things. These are NOT Detroit products, they're what Detroit would have done if the really good engineers hadn't gone to other industries.
 

· Former '05er
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Discussion Starter · #29 ·
Been building engines and doing cylinder heads since 1980. Yeah, I just made all this sh!t up to piss you off. Please. Get a life and learn something other than single underhead cam crap.

Stuff (Might want to peruse this site a little)

More stuff.

Yep, you're right, I don't know the business end of phillips head from a lag bolt.
 

· Former '05er
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Discussion Starter · #33 ·
You need one of these. You also need the software to go with it. Looks like something between $6k and $8k with all the options you'll need. Plus, you need to order software from Toyota. No idea how much that will run, but no doubt it won't be cheap.
 

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Discussion Starter · #35 ·
Yes the IS300 has a Supra-like engine in it. It has the 2JZ block and the GE stands for performance head, normally aspirated. The turbo engine is the 2JZ-GTE. The engine in the IS uses different pieces than its Supra NA brothers. For some reason they decided to skimp on the rods, so they only hold about 425 hp. Other than that significant difference, the other differences are minor
 

· Former '05er
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Discussion Starter · #37 ·
Yes, you can put Supra rods in an IS engine, put a turbo on it, and make ~600 hp pretty easily. To make a lot more, you need a head like the one in my pictures. That head is a GE head that I modified for a guy who drag races a turbo'd GE engine, and it should flow at least as well as a turbo head. I suspect it actually flows a lot better, but I didn't have access to a flowbench to check it.
 
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