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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
For some reason it always seems on these forums, that people fall to 4 things for power, i guess cause it's easier. I/H/E i think is a good place to start, and FI is always an easy way... but there have to be more creative, efficent means for adding power. I know a while ago, there were tests with chrome cylenders, i think textron was doing it, the idea being that there would be no wear in the cylender wall, so therefore you could run tighter clearences, but engines ate a lot of oil with those. High compression stuff can be cool also. When riding my bike, i ran across a seat of intake manifold gaskets that created a venturi effrect going into the cylender heads. There is a company call Gammi, which make GamiJectores, fuel injectors that are specifficaly demensioned to each cylender to match the fuel flows (not all cyl. will get the same, fuel settings to each may vary as much as 25-50 deg LOP or ROP).

Just tryin to see what ideas people have beyond the basic I/H/E / FI... it all gets kinda repetitive

(and im willing to subject my car to many things, as long as i don't end up in the darwin awards)
 

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Chrome cylinders have been around for a long time. They're called Nikasil, because they take a cylinder (usually made of aluminum) and vacuum deposit a nickel chromium coating on the cylinder wall with a high voltage process. The resulting cylinders are very light and extremely wear resistant. A number of European manufacturers have used this technology in road cars and motorcycles.

If you really want to get into the specifics of making power in an NA engine, there are a lot of things you can do. They all involve optimizing what the factory gave you in combination with changing the way the engine produces power to focus on a specific rpm range (usually higher than stock).

Many of these things are not inexpensive because the people who do them are proud of their work and present a bill commensurate with their skills and knowledge. I don't port heads for free. I don't know anyone with any talent who does. I don't build engines for free. Again, I don't know anyone with any talent who does. I do share information, and I will certainly tell you what I think will work, but even that is hard to find for free.
 

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Major headings are:

Weight reduction (especially rotating mass)

Thermal control coatings

Optimization of component parts (blueprinting)

Changing fundamental operating parameters (cams, fuel, engine management)

Which topics would you like to discuss?
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Who said free? lol i like free but i would rather do it myself, which seems to be even harder to do. not the skills, but, finding a quality guy to tutor a nube... well is harder than bolting on a turbo.

sorry for the prev. bad spelling, had a little too much to drink.

I think i would like to get a junked motor to build up... piece by piece, and leave whats in my car alone. I've gotten into too much troubble taking things apart, and i need my car while working on it. the idea of matched injectors is appealing to me, how about dual ignition systems? anyway to fit another plug in the engine? i assume no cause the valves take too much space.

im ready to learn, just want something more than an exhaust for 500 buck

edit

Seems you posted again while i was replying. anyways

A BP would be easy on a teardown i think, at least a good place to start.

I would like to get the rpms up, but that means shorter stroke( i think) with high compression pistons i think
 

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Dual plugs are a crutch for a poor combustion chamber design. Our cylinders are too small anyway, you really won't see much of an advantage, and you'll suffer a huge penalty for sucking up all that real estate with a plug instead of valve area.

Let's go topic by topic, and cover the whole thing. Where do you want to start?
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
I also would not mind removing the counterbalance system if the interanals can hold up the the unbalanced loads... although that would prob. lower my rpm limit again... why is everything a compromise?
 

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No, the counterbalance can typically be removed without any significant losses, but you will have increased vibration, and the service life of the engine mounts will suffer.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
earlier you were talking about a closed deck, would that help for an na engine? and i would like to think BP is a good place to start. at least see what im working with.

Also... you always seem to have lots of links to post... got a liberary of those somewhere?

honestly, im always thinking up little ideas, turns out, 99% are dumb... but having some material that was legit to read could help me not make an a$$ of myself online so much
 

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Originally posted by striptyler@Apr 9 2005, 04:14 PM
earlier you were talking about a closed deck, would that help for an na engine? and i would like to think BP is a good place to start. at least see what im working with.

Also... you always seem to have lots of links to post... got a liberary of those somewhere?

honestly, im always thinking up little ideas, turns out, 99% are dumb... but having some material that was legit to read could help me not make an a$$ of myself online so much
I like those that ask questions. Why? Because it shows that they are actively trying to increase their knowledge. So attempting to increase your knowledge isn't making an ass of yourself, it is just showing that you are truly smart. Only idiots refuse to learn more and are content at their current level.
 

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Originally posted by striptyler@Apr 9 2005, 04:14 PM
earlier you were talking about a closed deck, would that help for an na engine? and i would like to think BP is a good place to start. at least see what im working with.

Also... you always seem to have lots of links to post... got a liberary of those somewhere?

honestly, im always thinking up little ideas, turns out, 99% are dumb... but having some material that was legit to read could help me not make an a$$ of myself online so much
No, a closed deck is more intended for boosted applications. The stock open deck is good to just about any NA hp you will be able to make.

I don't have a library of links, I generally do searches to find links to things I already know. HOWEVER, there is one link to a pretty good, and also pretty controversial site here. There is a LOT of information in this archive, and the results Endyne achieves are similar to what I have found in my own experiments. Spend some time reading through this archive. It's not all gospel, but a tremendous amount of the info is really good and helps you understand the WHY much better.

If you have an idea, do some research on it. If you can't find anything after using a search engine, ask here. If we still come up empty handed, it might be something no one has tried (although that's pretty rare these days). It's better to ask a question than to assume the idea is bad or foolish before even doing some discovery.

More very useful links:

Check the myths and misconceptions found on this site, and all the engine tech found here. This guy also knows what he is talking about from practical experience, not just what his buddies have told him.
 

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Bump...see myths and misconceptions link above...
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
cool, thanks for helping here,

Now i got another question. My car was towed illeagallylast night, the e-brake was on and car was parked nose in. it was also left in first gear. They towed it using a front wheel dolly, but i don't think they could get to the front, so im thinking they towed it by the rear wheels? anyways what sorts of dammages should i look for, should i have it inspected? I have an attourny filing with small claims, plus filed chrges (not going to get into why) on my side, the apartment complex is on my side, they filed petition that it was towed illegaly.

I want to take those $%^#'s for every penny i can, just because of the way the treated me when i brought proof that they towed illegaly
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Ok, on cyl. heads, what i understood from that, bigger is not always better... im guessing that the shape, angle and overal width leading into the valve play major factors in the system. he also described reaching better than 100% VE in an NA engine... im guessing this is very rare. Do headworkers try to utilize the venturi effect to accelerate air into the head? and if they do, doesn't this cause an overal decrease in the density of the air inside the combutstion chameber? or do you want low intake velocity whith high volume to maximize air density. or maybe does it depend on what type of power you want, low end or top end?

Also, if i do get my hands on en engine (had 3500 saved for S/C.. thinking spare engine might be better money now) what kind of stuff could i do to the head to start?

my mechanical experiance is all in 2-stroke marine engines... alas they have very very diffrent heads than we do (no valves per say)

final question, would you make better power working intake, exhaust first, or both together?
 

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I missed this post. You still around Strip?
 

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Well this isnt a power adder. If you are willing to tear down the motor that much. You could have rods, pistons, vavles, block whatever all cryo treated. Would make everything much much stronger and have a more reliable motor that can handle much more HP. You could also do this to your tranny parts so your trans could handle all the power you throw at it as well

http://www.nwcryo.com/motorsports.html

http://www.percryo.com/lg_eng_pricing.htm
They have a list of prices. Where I was gonna get some stuff done
 

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Yeah, I'm pretty familiar with cryo and many different coatings. Neither of them will add power, but both will enhance reliability and allow you to make bigger tuning mistakes without damaging anything.

I was ready to talk more about cylinder heads if Strip is still around and interested.
 

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I haven't built an engine before. Would shaving the head or the deck to raise the compresion give any gains? How about a lightened flywheel, and removing the ballance shafts? Along with CAI and full exhaust? And don't forget ECU tunning.

Any thoughts?

A junk yard motor would be great to play with.

Or a whole salvage car to race at the local track in the 4 cyl. class. Cant mod it to race though rules, rules, rules.
 

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Raising compression always gives gains, but it has a cost associated with it: you will be forced to run higher octane fuel. Milling the deck is something you do to get the squish right if it isn't right from the factory. Most of the time it is not, but modern machining is making things better. The factory wants to err on the side of too tall because the engine will run too tall, but will not run too short. Decks are usually spec'd at some number + a tolerance. There is no - in the tolerance. If you get a block that is decked correctly from the factory, you are one very lucky mug. I suspect zoltiz has one of these engines because his fuel economy is so good. Deck height and squish are called artificial octane because when you get them right, the engine is far less sensitive to fuel quality.

Milling the head is a common way of boosting compression, but the 2AZ uses angled squish pads, so milling the head could be very problematic with the stock pistons. Most manufacturers leave at least 0.010" on the head to allow a light resurfacing in case of a headgasket failure, so it's certainly possible there is something there to work with. Still, I'd want to be sure I've done all the homework to make sure I have the exact clearance I want (somewhere between 0.5 and 1.0mm squish height). Too tight means the pistons will hit the head. Also, because this is an aluminum block, you need to take thermal resizing into account and set up your clearances to be correct at operating temperature. Expect the block to grow significantly from cold to full temperature.

Removing the balance shafts and lightening the crank would be excellent for improving power delivery. Neither of them will "create" horsepower, but both will liberate power currently diverted to some other function. It would not suprise me if there is 10 pounds of excess mass in the 2AZ crank. Removing it and the balancers would do wonders for throttle response. The big HOWEVER is removing the balancers will make the engine a lot more buzzy. Big fours are inherently not well balanced, and even a full precision balancing will not eliminate the tendency for the engine to shake. Expect more vibration in the car, and shorter engine mount life if you choose this path. I wouldn't do it to my daily driver, but it would be one of the first things I'd do to a racer.

I don't need to say any more about a lightened flywheel. I have one installed. It's a major improvement IMHO.

Anything that takes the engine's mechanical spec away from what Toyco intended will result in changed tuning. Reflashing the ECM or piggybacks will be necessary for anything other than blueprinting to OEM specs. So far, I haven't seen anyone successfully reflashing their ECM, although Scionspeed made veiled claims about this a while back. They don't seem to be doing very well from a business perspective these days; there are a lot of pissed off preorder turbo kit buyers out there who would say they really suck, but I have no personal experience to say one way or the other. Their parent company, Jamasco, has done some very interesting stuff, and they appear to be quite technically competent, but their business skills seem to be coming up short these days.

It would be great to have a junkyard engine to build. I can think of lots of things I'd like to check out, especially the port configuration in the head to see how it would respond to port work and ceramic coatings. That will have to wait until I get a head sitting on the bench in front of me.
 
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