[EyeOnScion]

what kinda camber am i looking at if i wanted to put the TRD springs on my car, but without aftermarket shocks?? thanx people..

 

[Plissken]

* needs to be moved to the suspension section *

 

[Check_Raise]

this is the Suspension & Brakes section...

 

[Labfish]

It was probably moved.

 

[zeromotorsports]

for the trd springs u prob will be ok without a camber kit...i think ive heard u can adjust the camber stock. even not, the 1.5in drop the trds give wouldnt be alot of camber anyway.

struts or no sturts ur camber should change about the smae, however the higher spring rate and lowered stance will prematurely wear out your stock shocks

 

[lo bux racer]

Please explain the reasoning behind these comments.

Q1: What is the rate of camber change as the suspension compresses? AFAIK, no one except Toyota has that data, and without it, it's impossible to guess what the camber will be at any changed ride height.

Q2: How does changing the springs prematurely wear out the stock shocks?

 

[zeromotorsports]

i dont know the exact camber specs, but any tech with an alignment rack will be able to look up the camber specs. either way take a look at some of the trd lowered tcs...ive seen hardly any camber change

1) just so u know, what ur talking about with the camber changing under compression helps the car handle...when the body rolls and puts more weight on one side, the suspension compresses and has camber change so that u have as much of a contact patch with ur tire as possible.

So are u telling me that u think a car with positive camber (top of the wheel tipped out in case u didnt know) that under compression goes nuetral will handle/ wear tires/ ride smoother... than one with nuetral stance at settle and negative camber under compression???

2) changing the ride height of the car will put a load on the shock and on the shock seals it makes it seem to the shocks that there is alot of weight in the car.

 

[lo bux racer]

OK, so let's figure this out.

1. You assume I don't know anything about alignment, or camber, caster, toe, roll center, and center of gravity in an automotive application. Very bad assumption.

2. Increased negative camber under compression helps in corners on the outside wheel. It is detrimental to traction on the inside wheel, so camber ideally does go positive on extension. Camber change does not help going straight which is the subject of this conversation. It is possible to characterize camber change according to mathematical models. Toyota undoubtedly did this, and knows exactly what the camber change will be for a given ride height and the suspension set to their original specs. I actually have this data for the MkIV Supra, but do not have it for the tC. Obviously, neither do you, so you are making a recommendation based on conjecture. This is also a bad assumption.

3. Changing the ride height on the car potentially changes the side loading on the shock in the front, because it isn't exactly a shock, it is a McPherson strut. However, if you think a small change in camber will be enough to prematurely wear out a strut, you need to run some calculations on side loading the strut under braking. If a small camber change will cause damage, the first hard stop will utterly destroy the strut. Stopping forces are measured in tonnes, not lbs, and the caliper attaches directly to the upright which attaches directly to the strut. This results in side loads easily as great as any cornering force the car can generate, but does it far more often. Think again about camber change being the culprit. Maybe when you have -5 degrees of camber on a Honda you'll suffer sooner, but not on anything with less than 2 degrees of camber.

There is no change in loading at all on the rear because it is a true coilover shock absorber and the wheel geometry is controlled by a set of wishbone shaped control arms. There is nothing you could do to the ride height in the rear that would change the sevice life expectation of the shock.

Got any better arguments?

 

[zeromotorsports]

yea, actually

QUOTE

Camber change does not help going straight which is the subject of this conversation[/b]

im more than aware that you want zero camber when going straight, more contact patch
QUOTE

What is the rate of camber change as the suspension compresses[/b]

u asked about under compression, which for the most part (exception of bumps and ####) is NOT going straight. not like the rate of camber change would be adversely affected by a 1.5in drop anyway

QUOTE

Changing the ride height on the car potentially changes the side loading on the shock in the front, because it isn't exactly a shock, it is a McPherson strut[/b]

im also aware that the tC uses MacPherson struts in the front, i mispoke earlier calling a shock, however, my point still stands that i didnt say that camber change would wear out the shock the compression of the strut would. when u have the car lowered on a stock strut it compresses the strut however much u have lowered it correct? so if the strut is compressed most of the time it is as if there is significantly more weight in the car which will prematurely wear out the strut.

BTW i didnt assume u dont know anything about alignment, i simply disagreed with what u said, no need to feel threatened buzz

 

[lo bux racer]

Originally posted by ZEROmotorsports@Feb 16 2005, 08:33 AM
yea, actually

im more than aware that you want zero camber when going straight, more contact patch

u asked about under compression, which for the most part (exception of bumps and ####) is NOT going straight. not like the rate of camber change would be adversely affected by a 1.5in drop anyway

im also aware that the tC uses MacPherson struts in the front, i mispoke earlier calling a shock, however, my point still stands that i didnt say that camber change would wear out the shock the compression of the strut would. when u have the car lowered on a stock strut it compresses the strut however much u have lowered it correct? so if the strut is compressed most of the time it is as if there is significantly more weight in the car which will prematurely wear out the strut.

BTW i didnt assume u dont know anything about alignment, i simply disagreed with what u said, no need to feel threatened buzz

Dude, I don't feel threatened, your sig is all wrong. You have a tenth of a clue about what you are talking about and you are passing it off as fact.

Ride height has nothing to do with wear on a shock or a strut. Period. It is a gas and oil filled device that is completely unaware of ride height and wears out entirely based on usage. Stop trying to tell this guy his struts and shocks are going to wear prematurely, they won't.

You are absolutely GUESSING at what the camber may be after lowering. You can't say it will be good, bad, or indifferent. You don't know, I don't know, only someone with alignment tools can say after the job has been done. End of story.

You completely failed to address the biggest concern after lowering the car: fixing the toe settings for the front and rear. Toe changes when you lower the car, and toe problems wear out tires faster than anything else you can screw up on an alignment.

You said:
QUOTE

...i think ive heard u can adjust the camber stock. even not, the 1.5in drop the trds give wouldnt be alot of camber anyway.[/b]

Why are you guessing again? "I think I've heard"???? No, if you looked at the service manual you would see quite clearly it is adjustable. If you read the posts on this site, you'd KNOW it's adjustable without a "camber kit." So why are you passing off sketchy, BS information? Get your information right or don't post. If you can't find a resource for the information, don't post. It's hard enough to modify something, but to have someone tell you something that is just plain BS as if it were fact is wrong. Stop BS'ing about things you don't know about!

 

[zeromotorsports]

QUOTE

Ride height has nothing to do with wear on a shock or a strut. Period. It is a gas and oil filled device that is completely unaware of ride height and wears out entirely based on usage. Stop trying to tell this guy his struts and shocks are going to wear prematurely, they won't.[/b]

Total BS... it WILL wear out the struts faster. compressing the strut more than normal in its nuetral state puts added pressure on the valving and will blow it out sooner than factory intended.

QUOTE

You are absolutely GUESSING at what the camber may be after lowering[/b]

a half-truth! ur getting warmer... your right that I dont KNOW what the camber specs will be. However I ASSUME (not blind guess/ hypothetical statement/ educated estimate/ etc..) that from my experience a 1.5in drop will not affect the negative camber by a large amount. Believe me If my tC had the springs on it, Id put the thing on the alignment rack and scan the specs just for u!

QUOTE

You completely failed to address the biggest concern after lowering the car: fixing the toe settings for the front and rear. Toe changes when you lower the car, and toe problems wear out tires faster than anything else you can screw up on an alignment[/b]

Im completely aware of a toe adjustment's effect on tire wear, and I havent mentioned it yet and neither had you until this point. However, the original post asked about camber and struts, not toe and tires.

QUOTE

You have a tenth of a clue about what you are talking about and you are passing it off as fact.[/b]

I STILL know what I am talking about and if you just so happen to disagree, prove it

 

[iGod]

and the ref stops the fight here.